Diet Doctor Podcast #39 — Ben Bocchicchio

I'm joined today by Dr. Ben Boccichio.. Now Dr. Ben or & quot Benbo & quot, as he's known, was really quite a pioneer in the world of low-carb lifestyles and resistance, training and high intensity interval training.

. He started this back in the 70s and has continued with it today and when you hear him talk, you're, going to see his passion, his knowledge and the impact he's had on a lot of the people he & # 39, s worked with, and one of the things we talked about is the concept of you can't outrun, a bad dieting.

, And he has a different perspective on that that I think will be really important to hear.. I mean he knows his stuff. He's got his training, he is a PhD in practice physiology and a second PhD in wellness and physical education.

And, like I said he has been in practice since the 70s helping people. And it's. Important to hear sort of the counterbalance to & # 39. Oh, we don't have to worry so much about practice'and his point is practice is absolutely crucial when done correctly and works synergistically with dieting to help us metabolically and help our wellness.

. So I hope you really appreciate and enjoy this interview with Dr. Ben Bocchichio. Hi everyconsistency Quick break in the interview.. There are a lot of low-carb conferences around and one that's. Coming up now is Low, Carb, Denver, 2020.

And for Diet. Doctor members, you can have free access to all the videos, all the presentations at that conference.. If you're a member.. If you're, seeing this before the conference happens, it's coming up soon.

, But even if you're watching this video now after it's already happened. After March 2020, if you're, A Diet Doctor member, you can still go back and watch all those videos that are on our platform. And, let me tell you Low Carb Denver always comes up with a great supply of speakers.

. The line up is fantastic. There are so many great take-home nuggets and information from those talks., Something you're not going to want to miss. So go ahead and go to DietDoctor.com look into the membership.

You get a one-month free trial. And that will give you access to all these videos.. You can learn from the experts to help you on your path to wellness., So that's. Low Carb, Denver 2020 videos. Check them out.

Now let's, get back to our interview. Dr. Ben Bocchichio. Thank you for joining me on the Diet. Doctor podcast.. My pleasure Bret. Always a pleasure to see you.. I've learned so much since I & # 39. Ve met you, and one of the things that really was remarkable to me is that you've, been doing this new thing called ketogenic, .

.., low-carb dieting and high-intensity interval training. This brand-new fad thing, since what ... 1974 Is that right, Yeah? Actually, personally before that, but professionally and clinically started in 74.

, So give us some of the background of how you got started in this with your education and then what you are seeing in your clients and in you personally.. Well, I started off being an athlete and my family had scientists in it and doctors, my parents were educators, my father was a firefighter and a teacher, and I always liked sports, and I was always fascinated with the training.

One of my cousins - great cousins. Really we call him uncle was the trainer and manager of Jersey, Joe Walcott, who was the world heavyweight boxing champion before Rocky Marciano.? So I used to go to the fights and I get to go in the gym and watch these guys, train and box and stuff, and I was always fascinated by it.

And as an athlete, I was always really interested in how to train to be better at The sport, but I really like the training part as much as the sport in some cases, and so I decided I was going to study this in college and I got a degree in phys/ed wellness and science and then a Masters in education with a specialization in Resistance practice, then I did a PhD in practice physiology.

And the second one after I was in practice for a while. I had a low back center in Miami. Everyconsistency was overweight.. I had the largest fittingness center in New York City. Most people were concerned with their weight.

. I had a cardiac rehab center ... and most of the problems for those people was, they were overweight. And I had a pretty good business going and I had time I decided to take a second PhD to get serious and study obesity.

. So when you do a PhD, you do a review of literature, so you have a theoretical basis for your hypothesis.. So my review of literature was the educatement of obesity and fat related disorders.. So about 8 or 10 years before Gary Taubes wrote Good Calories, Bad Calories.

I interviewed and studied a bunch of the people like he did for his book.. So when that book came out, I got ahold of Gary and we've, become really good friends and done seminars and presentations together, and so I got into that.

. But as far as the low-carb thing to me was all first-hand observation. People wanted to get lean and the leanest people that I knew were consistencybuilders.. So I kind of asked them. It's kind of like asking a race horse how to run fast.

But I asked them what they were doing and I kind of observed what they were doing and they were low-carb. Before a contest. These guys were low-carb big-time, low-carb okay., And I thought that's. A good way to go, and I didn't mind it because I loved eating meat and I did it myself and I felt really good and at that time I was still a fairly elite athlete and I felt great in my performances, my energy And everything in habitus .

.. - And you know I am not a consistencybuilder - I always had a decent set of Italian muscles, so I started doing that and I used it for a lot of my first clients and patients and subjects and studies that I did.

, And so We did the ketogenic, and then I created in 1974, slow resistance, training. And the basis of that was high intensity training that was safe and productive., And I really started out training athletes.

In fact, going back to 1974. It might be interesting to note that I didn't even first consider that women could do this. There wasn't such a thing.. So I had a poser come to me, an Olympic volleyball player gal and they work their butts off and I said .

.. light went on .... They can do this too.. You know I literally did not even consider that as part of my poser., So it grew rapidly into orthopedic, rehab, cardiac rehab, metabolic disorders, all kinds of --.

You know sports training, and so my clientele just got diverse and big, very fast.. By the time I was, I think, 27 years old, I had seven of these facilities centers all over the East coast and that's.

The deal and I've, been doing it ever since.. So you really were sort of one of the pioneers in the field, because now it's. Incredibly popular and people are talking about low-carb, but back then really not many.

Other people were talking about it. Well low-carb. Actually I've. Seen about three iterations in the 45 50 years that I've been doing this., You had the Stillman and then, of course you had the Atkins in the initial stages.

And he was in New York and I was in New York at the time And then these things got hot and then they went away - and I think I'm trying for this not to happen in this iteration, but I think we have more solid science and we have better people to represent this drive .

.. this issue.. So I think this time it will stick and I want to --, but one of the things you know - and I think Steve Phinney -- I realize Steve - is almost as old as I am and I realize we have kind of a similar perspective on some of The new claims made by the ketogenic community.

, So you know, pump the brakes a little bit., So we don't get into that. You know getting ahead of ourselves and making claims that are going to make us less reliable.. That's. A great point, because when something becomes hot and something becomes a new catchphrase and people are benefiting from it, it almost turns into a cure-all.

. And then you start to sound like you're selling snake oil because the one thing can cure all.. So what do you see as some of the areas where you think maybe the low-carb community has gone too far and needs to pump the brakes a little bit? Well, not intentionally, but anytime things get hot.

Like you say, people are going to jump on the bandwagon.. You have ketogenic socks, ketogenic bowties, I mean to use the word. My point is you know we have a specific set of metabolic issues and parameters that we deal with and we have science to back up the fact that we have some benefit derived from that practice.

. But some of these claims - -- one of my pet peeves - is -- and I'm, not going to mention names unless you want me to, but some of the claims that are being made, for example, about fasting, I think, are still a little over-the-top And are unproven.

Now I wrote my first article about fasting in 1978., I was trained in therapeutic fasting by vegans, who had a therapeutic fasting clinic, and I saw some wonderful results from this stuff. I mean arthritic conditions --.

I will tell a story about a girl that came in there at 12 years old and had had her tonsils out at nine or 10. And after she had her tonsils out. She started to decline in her performance at school. Her attitude behavior.

And at that time they used ether as a --, So they fasted this girl, 12-year-old girl. I watched this and I think, on the fourth day of fasting --, So fasting to me, is not eating. ... eating once a day is not fasting.

In my mind, in the therapeutic fasting genre, okay, But anyway they fasted her for four days and in the fourth day she felt better and the room stunk of ether 3+ years later. That's, bizarre. Yeah. If I didn't see it, I wouldn't --, But then she felt better.

, So I saw arthritic people come into that place. That could hardly walk and some of them fasted. Two weeks I'm talking two weeks with just water.. Now that sounds like you're talking about fasting as a miracle cure, but you said you have some concerns about --.

No, it was therapeutic fasting. That's different from what we're doing in conjunction with ketogenic.. Now I didn't, say it's, a miracle cure.. I think it's, a good modality when used prudently.. There is a sweet spot for almost anything, a drug, a behavior, okay - And this is one of them.

. I have no problem with fasting. I think in most cases responsible fasting. I have no problem with what they call intermittent fasting and we used to call it eating once a day.. So the fasting thing connected to that to me is a little bit --.

I spoke to someconsistency yesterday who was fairly knowledgeable and we had a little bit of an argument. And he said really technically. The four hours between my meals is when I'm fasting., I said a fasting person.

Doesn't accept that.. I mean so that means every minute that you are not eating. You are fasting ... I don't, consider that to be the right terminology and the right application of the concept., There has to be a threshold somewhere to cross before --.

Usually in my practice we are talking about not eating for a full day., So you're sleeping without having eaten that day.. So I don't want to get too tackled. Maybe it doesn't matter, but it just bugs me.

Well. This is interesting because the term gets adopted popular landing. It's thrown around and you want to make sure that you're using it in a way that's actually going to benefit people. Significantly.

People want to get the maximum benefit for the minimal effort.. So if you say fasting, six hours is going to benefit me. Well, okay, it's, probably better than snacking, but it's not going to have the same impact as fasting three days.

, But again each is a tool around to be used in a certain circumstance, not that they're. All good for everyconsistency in every circumstance., Okay, I'll, go with the subjectivity and individuality of it all right with that.

But if you think about it, Bret, if you eat breakfast lunch and dinner, you are fasting four hours and five hours. .... Is that the case? No, I don't. Consider that fasting. Let's, not beat a dead horse, but you get the idea.

. The claims that I'm talking about are the metabolic claims of fasting.. So let's, go to the cellular --. I am a muscle guy, okay, so I know muscle physiology. I know protein synthesis kind of pretty decently.

Okay, If you're, claiming that during fasting, you can up-regulate protein synthesis, it's. A tough swallow because certainly no cell is dumb enough to basically grow in the absence of nutrients and no organism really does that.

. Now can you can you temporarily or something -- Now the HGH claims? Okay, The growth hormone. Yeah, the human growth hormone claims that during fasting, the HGH, basal level or responsive level goes up.

. Now I think this is my opinion. This is not science yet because there isn't any that this is this furtive effort of the cell trying not to die, and so it's pumping a little bit. You have these spikes in HGH.

Without much area you have some amplitude., Because the cells say & quot, Please don't die.. I am to try to get some HGH into this thing. So I don't die. & quot. I think that's different than HGH from practice, and some of those study show that you can increase HGH to double the basal rate.

But, by the same token, my pitch is .... There are plenty of studies that show high intensity training practice muscle training increases HGH by 15 to 20 to 25 times.. So I think that if you calculate that these things are somehow equivalent, I think it's just silly and I think a little irresponsible.

Interesting that's, a big statement.. So I definitely want to get into the practice. But you've distracted me here with the fasting, so I'm going to keep going with the fasting.. So one of the big concerns about fasting is loss of muscle mass.

, That's. One of the biggest concerns that are going to put people at risk of sarcopenia and accelerated muscle loss, and you are the muscle guy. So what do you think about that Again? I think it's, how you apply the modality.

, So I think some fasting and I think that autophagy is part of this whole cycling. You don't, build muscle from practice. In fact, you a little bit break it down for a day or so, and then you start to rebuild.

. Protein synthesis becomes --. The ribosomes become more active. The mitochondria -- because you've demanded energy. These are good things. These are useful anti-aging. If you want to go there things longevity kind of things, they happen okay, But there was a time at which you can have this degradation.

. I think Steve Phinney is going to speak on this, but I see the same thing. Now years ago. I did a fasting experiment with about 12 athletes and at that time we used a hydrostatic weighing in you know, under water weighing for consistency.

. I wanted to see on a five-day fast. What happened? What I could measure.? This was maybe late 70s or early 80s at the latest., And I did it myself. And the first two days according to hydrostatic weighing we lost lean tissue.

No question. Now understand Bret that hydrostatic weighing considers everything of equal or higher density than water to be lean., Including bones., Of course, but I'm saying understand. The key word is & quot.

Water & quot Water is considered lean in hydrostatic weighing.. So you know on a low-carb dieting or ketogenic dieting. You & # 39, ll lose water, the first few days right And since muscle is 80 % water fat 17. It's, assumed in an algorithm that it's muscle.

. I see.. Okay, but this is what it showed, and that was the gold standard at the time for consistency composition., So we lost muscle the first couple of days and then in the last three days we lost equal amounts of fat and muscle.

. So there is some indication that we are definitely losing some muscle.. Now I don't, recommend five day, fasted, un-therapeutic and un-supervised., But in the lexicon now you know once a day eating I don & # 39.

T think has this drastic effect? I think that's perfectly fine.. I knew plenty of people. I'm, talking hundreds of people that ate once a day and did well and had huge muscle, mass and kept it into you know extended years.

. So when you work with people and have them fast under supervision, -- -I don't do that. -Okay. I mean I understand how to do it, but I really haven't done it because that to me gets into almost of a Medical practice or an application.

I am familiar with, but I don't feel competent in supervising it.. So in your opinion, then, without science, and just your opinion would light to moderate resistance. preparation during a fasting period help offset that muscle and lean tissue loss, Good question.

. So basically we're talking about what is the priority of the organism.. Is it to sustain muscle or is it to preserve energy? So it was more important for us to have the energy to go out and hunt to get the food or to have the food to go out and hunt Okay, so the chicken and egg a little bit.

. So I'm, not sure, but if you're talking about intermittent fasting or one day fast, you can do anything you want.. There are guys that have played NFL football that have run Olympic races in that condition, and there's, no evidence --, But again now it depends on the response, like any medication like any behavioral intervention depends on.

The response depends on the pathways that we've induced to what level for the individual. But in my experience I've, not seen a problem with that at all.. You can go high-intensity. You can blow it out if you want.

, If it's. One day fast, I haven't. Seen any problem. Now. Do I think, -- to answer your question doing some practice during a fast a three day fast or something you could --? I have no reason to believe, and I don't - think there's, any evidence in the literature to believe that at least moderate intensity practice would be damaging.

. I don't, see why it would. Okay. So now we are on the practice topic., The big phrase that I know kind of ruffles, your feathers. A little bit .... You can't outrun, a bad dieting right That's been a very common phrase that we've heard and for good reason, because for a long time it was just this & quot eat less move more & quot Message that we know doesn't work for the majority of the people.

, So then that transitions to & quot you can't outrun, a bad dieting & quot, basically meaning you need to focus on your nutrition first before you start exercising For weight loss., But tell me your thoughts on this statement.

I don't agree with that.. I gave a presentation on low-carb here yesterday and I said if you don't use both of these modalities --. There is so much synergy when we undertake any kind of a treatment, behavioral pharmacological whatever it might be.

We are instigating or attempting to directly instigate certain metabolic pathways., That's, really what we're trying to do. Is it not With ketogenic dieting? We're, trying to instigate metabolic pathway., So we identify these pathways, so we know what some of them are and I can show you literature and pound for pound how high-intensity practice is at least an additive, if not a synergistic component of this.

. You're, going to get much more bang for your buck and I can instigate a lot of those pathways without being on a ketogenic dieting.. So what's more important To me, the sensible way to apply this is together.

, So I don't. Think --. Now behaviorally, I understand if you get a 350 pound diabetic and you don't want to give them too much to absorb behaviorally as it's going to be ominous ... & quot, I have to watch, I can eat bread and I have to practice .

.. & quot, Okay, I could go with that, but physiologically metabolically I do not go with that.. I mean, I think you have to practice the muscle systems, power and efficacy as an endocrine organ has been underestimated and we in medical and the graduate school have not been taught to recognize and appreciate it.

. I think that a number of good points is that one we don't want to overwhelm people by giving them too much so sometimes simplifying the message to say just focus on your dieting and don't worry about practice is an Easier pill to swallow so to speak, an easier transition to make.

. But your next point is: if you want to have maximum effect, then you also have to consider the practice in addition to the nutrition.. But when you used the word high intensity interval training, I think that's come to be synonymous now with sprinting with you know, treadmill repeats or bicycled repeats as hard as you can for 30 seconds or a minute.

You know the boot camp type exercising., But you use that also to mean resistance, training.. No, I actually I don't use it to mean any of the things that you just described., That's, hard work.. If I give you a pick and a shovel and ask you to dig a 20 foot trench 6 feet deep, that's, not high intensity training interval training.

That's, not productive practice. So I don't agree with that.. High-Intensity practice is a direct, organized muscle, fiber recruitment pattern for your consistency for the particular workout, the timing between the exercising, the methodology of the workout.

. What we are trying to do is to induce these fight or flight life or death type 2B muscle fibers to come into play and tax them to a threshold level.. So now we have certain parameters that are human parameters.

. Noconsistency can work at a high intensity with those type 2 muscle, -- type 2 fiber. Sorry, -- type 2B fiber was more than probably about 90 seconds.. So if you're going longer than that either you have the lower the intensity --.

So it's, not that it's, hard practice, it's, not that it's demanding and grueling. It may be all of those, but that's, not what defines high-intensity practice.. So this is a universally applicable concept.

If someconsistency is very sedentary having them get off that share three times may tax their type 2B muscle fibers and therefore they are in a high-intensity metabolic load.. So the concept that we normally .

.. & quot, High-intensity. Oh it's, hard & quot .... You know that's. My little red badge of courage has nothing to do with it.. It has very little to do with it. It's, this .... In my mind, this is a prescribed controlled environment to tax those muscles to this threshold level under control safely and in a sequence of time and recovery, that's organized and subject to physiological parameters that we know exist.

Yeah. So it sounds like on the surface that this will require someconsistency who's already fit already knows what they're doing has gym knowledge, but no you say this can happen.. anyconsistency can do this.. Today, we just trained 15 or 20 people, some who had major orthopedic problems, some who haven't practiced in 45 years, some who are obese, many of whom were diabetic and don't practice.

We just did it with them at every level, from I would say, 25 to 75 today. And I've done this tens of thousands of times.. So you can do this at any level.. My last slide said you know fat, kids, rich kids, poor kids.

Anyconsistency can do this.. In any case, you can do this with anyconsistency.. I did it with phase 2 cardiac rehab patients. I did it with orthopedic patients. I've done it with people. In wheelchairs, I've done it with the world-class world record holder, athletes, kids, older people.

. All we're trying to do is to tax those fibers. And subjectively it's. The same demand but objectively could be totally different. Planets., So how does that work then? When you're taxing these fibers? What's, the mitochondrial effect? What's? The cellular effect that you can see with this type of practice? So what happens is .

..? This is something I'm going to get across, and I put this and in my talk ..., so we're doing what most people consider strength work.. I just consider it muscle taxation.. So we're, doing something locally in the biceps or the quads or whatever we might be working.

. There is a global support. Mechanism. The circulatory system increases. The respiratory system has to supply oxygen. Your breathing accelerates hormonal changes happen. Skeletal system adapts neurological system, .

.., okay, so the driver of all these major organ systems is practice muscle contraction. If you think about it., We would not have needed a heart that can pump 10 times above normal. If we didn't have a muscular demand.

, We would not have to breathe four times seven times more oxygen per unit of time. If we didn & # 39, t have to do some practice. ... some muscle action, didn't demand. It., Even the brain, the brain didn't grow.

You know until it grew much more significantly when we had vigorous practice, and we know that the more you practice - or at least you tax, these muscle fibers at a certain level, the more the brain increases, the neural transmission capacity.

. So my point is, the muscle system is really important and I don't know if I'm going off track a little bit, but with that in mind we tried to educate the system that's safe and scientific And not time-consuming, but it is universally applicable.

You don't have to have --. I mean you can do this with bands at home. And if you saw Doug Reynolds and I doing on Low-Carb USA me taking him through it and Doug is a pretty strong guy. He got his butt kicked just using bands.

And it took us. I think 12 minutes to go through his whole consistency., So it can work, it does work. It's, applicable. Yeah, that's. A really another important part about this is the barrier to access, because some people say I don't have to drive to the gym and change my clothes, and I don't have to spend an hour.

, And you are saying & Quot No do this at home. Do this with simple equipment? Do it for 10 to 15 minutes and you're good as long as you do it correctly. & quot, I mean if that's, what you want. Some people, like the social atmosphere of the gym and some people have a different Piece of equipment - I have no problem, but you have to reach those metabolic thresholds.

Those fatigue thresholds that taxation of those type 2 muscle fibers, whatever the modality.. I think that's, the key you have to work each muscle to fatigue. Each practice has to be to fatigue. Yeah, okay, interesting --.

I don't know. If you've heard of --. Let me see ... -Keith, Baar ... -I don't. Think I -- You got to listen to Keith Baar.. He is an practice. Physiologist research, cellular dude at UC, Davis, top-of-the-line.

, mTOR guy knows this stuff. In his research in a petri dish. He has come to the conclusion that muscle stimulation should be slow in nature. It should be probably a couple times a week and each practice should be taken to failure.

. Now that's, exactly what I do.. I came from the gym 50 years ago and came up with this.. He came from a petri dish and we & # 39. Ve arrived at the same place, which is interesting., And can I'm to get a hold of him and we're going to have some contact.

Maybe do some studies, but this is pretty interesting. This is really what works primarily and almost exclusively this kind of formulation., And so again, one of the things I brought up in my talk was that if you are in the top one third for muscle, strength in your age group for your gender, you are 25 % more likely to live to be 100 and at least 40 % less likely to die of cancer.

As an isolated variable. If you are diabetic, if you're overweight, if you're a smoker, it doesn't matter, it doesn't reflect on that statistic., So muscle strength as we know .... So you asked me about sarcopenia.

Okay, So sarcopenia is almost always a matter of lack of physical activity or endure practice, which I consider two separate and distinct issues. Important differentiation., So activity offsets the problems that kind of occur with sedentary behavior.

. So as a species, if we were sedentary, you died., You couldn't, get away from the predator, you couldn't, get the food and water and shelter.. Now we die, but it takes 65 years.. So that's. Activity - and I think you should be active but practice - is every three or four days taken down a big old animal to eat, working your butt off for a few days taken easy and then you got to go out again.

. But if you had to do that every day you would & # 39. Ve been dead., You couldn't, have sustained it., So there's, a recovery, genetically determined from high-intensity practice., Very interesting .

... So, to go back to the original statement & quot, you can't outrun, a bad dieting & quot. Would you say that's true, but you can out-lift a bad dieting. Yeah I mean we know that aerobic & quot cardiovascular & quot practice has proven to be useless in fat.

Reduction. There's, no question about it. It's, the wrong prescription., So the prescription came out .... The history of this came out kind of simultaneously. Fat's, bad eat, carbs start to run.. Those things happened almost contiguously simultaneously, they happened.

. So what happened when we applied those techniques, People got fatter and sicker. People got fatter and did more and more practice and ate more and more carbs.. So the physiology of aerobic practice instigates fat usage, but fat recycling.

. So here & # 39. S is one of the things that I put into my book and I think people understand. There's, fat borrowing and then there's. Fat burning. In an aerobic cycle. The normal fatty acid to triglyceride cycle happens continuously.

. We borrow from that cycle for aerobic practice. That's. Why it's. Steady-State. Steady-state by definition, means it. Doesn't make a big imposition on your metabolism. Right Because you can sustain it.

. If we do type 2B high-intensity practice, it is anything but steady-state.. It drives an adrenaline response. That adrenaline response produces a relinquish of free fatty acids, because I'm running out of glycogen or I'm being threatened of running out of glycogen the life-and-death fuel, and so your consistency says & # 39.

We need some backup here, because I think I'm running out of this & # 39, Whether you run out of it or not. I think, if you threaten that, if you deplete at a very high rate, your consistency gets into this survival kind of a mode it relinquishs adrenaline which, in an amplification cascade, produces this free fatty, acid, relinquish.

And adrenaline, I think, can cleave I don'T how many thousands of molecules of glycogen. Just one molecule of adrenaline, so it's, a powerful potent --. So now what we've done in this fat cycle, we borrowed from our stored fat, we've, actually used.

We've, now taken this out from triglyceride into free fatty acid.. So when we're done with practice, as opposed to when you're done with aerobic practice, you've borrowed you've created this deficit. So what does your consistency do? Gary Taubes has mentioned this.

What your consistency does is it slows down and gets hungry., So the net effect is zero.. I think that's, so important. The hunger effect is so important., But when you relinquish all this fatty acid, you know after an practice or this adrenaline kind of thing, your metabolic rate stays high and you know if you have adrenaline flowing you're, not hungry.

. So there is a whole different response mechanism to high-intensity practice than there is to supposedly fat burning aerobic practice.. Now how about ..., how the dieting impacts that I mean? Can you still have those benefits from a high carb dieting Sure.

? So if we're talking about maintaining protein synthesis, which is maintaining muscle, which is anti-sarcopenia understanding that kind of a concept all right, There are three ways that you can instigate: protein synthesis.

One our amino acids, leucine's, a big one, But amino acids, two, our growth factors and three, our mechanical stress.. Now mechanical stress and growth factors do the same thing., So you really only need one or two of those.

, So you need your aminos that's. The eating that's. The synergy and we can do the practice. One of the growth factors is insulin but as low-carb people we don & # 39. T want insulin, so forget: insulin.

, Use the amino acid input with the mechanical induction and deformation and stress, and you can increase protein synthesis on a ketogenicgenic dieting.. We don't need the growth factor of insulin. Right. But if you .

.., I guess my point is, though, that you can see benefits whether you're eating, low-carb or high carb.. Either one is going to see similar muscle benefits, but maybe different benefits for fat loss or different benefits in another way.

Yeah. The insulin actually is a growth factor that would benefit protein synthesis. Don't. Forget it drives other stuff other than just sugar or fat. Okay, it drives protein synthesis also.. In fact, some of your big time elite or grotesque, consistencybuilders, inject insulin.

That's, how they grow., But in our case, for the 95 % of the population, insulin really has a negative connotation with good cause.. So for someone who has started on the journey of improving their dieting, improving their lifestyle going low-carb and has read all the lines of you cannot outrun a bad dieting, so has sort of put away practice for a little while to focus on dieting.

How do you recommend they get started with a program like this? How do you recommend to get started with implementing practice to improve their wellness? Everyone as long as there's, no anatomical problem now injury problem and you can work around those can work.

All the major muscle groups in their consistency safely, and simply with about seven practices with bands or --, I'm, not a big consistency weight guy. I think that's. Another thing ..., Some of our colleagues - do these stunts these very difficult consistency weight practices I wouldn't, prescribe that to anyconsistency I trained.

Even my world-class athletes., I think, would start to get into Cirque du Soleil stuff. You know. Look what I can do. I can do these pistol squattings. Come on. I mean I can't, prescribe that to people. So too challenging for most people.

And the skill aspect of this. I think overcomes the muscle ..., the productivity of the muscle work. I mean you can get it done much more safely and much more simply than that., So the use of some kind of resistance other than the gravity that earth provides for us in our consistency weight To me is much more benign and simple.

: Almost everyconsistency can do all the practices and the ones that they can't. We can substitute and practice to work that muscle group in one of its functions, so we're, not at a big loss. You know., So you work the whole consistency .

.. again. There are local and global benefits of practice., Locally insulin sensitivity. You got insulin, sensors in all your muscles. Why not tax them? You & # 39. Ve got mitochondria in all your muscles.

. Why not instigate their increase and behavior.? We have mTOR production in all of our tissues actually.. So all these growth factors can come into play and I think they come into play more globally by working.

Sectionally. Each muscle group. - So I like to work the whole consistency in one day then allow the consistency to recover as a total unit instead of an arm and a leg ... That comes from the consistencybuilders, and there are a lot of want-to-be kind of guys in our Field out that started, you know they & # 39, ve done some practice and you can see their abs and you can see their biceps.

You know., And you know good for you, but you're, not a consistencybuilder, so get off that okay. So what about the people who say & quot? I want to do this to be wellnessy, but don't want to get too bulky. I don't want to look big & quot, My answer, because this question has been asked to me .

.. This now is the 10,001 time .... If you think, for some reason, you're, going to do an practice and wake up like the Hulk the next day tearing out your clothes, this is not going to happen.. So if you get to a point where you are getting too big and too muscular, you call me - and you tell me, and we'll figure out how to minimize that.

. That problem happens almost never. Good to know., And then what about people who are concerned about hunger, Like we talked about with the cardio practice? It can fuel hunger and you sort of give yourself an excuse to eat more.

And with this type of practice you said it. Doesn't stimulate hunger as much, but you find psychologically people still use it as a crutch to eat more. We can go into behavioral and psychological stuff and we would have another 300 hours of interview, but some people say & quot.

I practice so I can eat & quot, which is stupid.. I don't know how else to describe it, but physiologically -- And don't forget now. High-Intensity practice has effects on leptin ghrelin. I mean it has these effects and there are plenty of studies that it affects --.

It actually reduces leptin levels. I mean this is: are good things that happen. And then again, if we don & # 39, t vacillate, in my opinion, blood sugar levels, which are going to have these spikes and drive hunger, which again, if you're, more insulin sensitive.

But through this muscle work it serves as almost a panacea for a lot of the exaggerated symptoms of hunger. And even understanding. If we control leptin, not only do we control the signals of hunger, we control the psychological hunger.

. I mean that there are two separate and distinct mechanism that leptin instigates. Also leptin helps you feel full. So you would want sort of more leptin to be --. Don't forget, you can become leptin resistant and then we start to get into dynamic range of substances of molecules.

. If you have a high level of fasting insulin and you take a bolus, you take in an imposition of glucose and say it takes 20 --, 20 level, -- of insulin to adjust to that. And your basal level is 18. You do not have the dynamic impact of someone whose basal level is 7 or 8.

, So it doesn't really affect that's. What you're insulin resistant, because the dynamic range is minute.. Someconsistency who is down in seven or eight give you give them something that requires 22 level of insulin.

. They are going to get a good bang out of their buck from that 22, because the dynamic range is important enough for you to get a significant response., So that's. Another issue, this dynamic range concept.

And in leptin, is pretty much the same. Way. Well interesting, I think it's, a fresh perspective that people need to hear because we are so --. We repeat the phrase so much: you can't outrun, a bad dieting, because the cardio practice is not the best way for weight loss and it's, important that we realize that.

, But then also important to hear your side that wait. There are other ways to practice. We can do this better to still impact our metabolic wellness to improve our overall wellness and work synergistically with a low-carb dieting.

Synergistically big word, but that's, really important. More bang. For your buck.. I really appreciate the message - and I'm - glad that I had you on today to kind of help. Our listeners understand this and give them a little bit of a framework to how to get started with this.

. So if people want to learn more about this system, where can they find you to hear more Dr. Benbo.com? I believe. I'm, not a big website guy, but I have all the information there where they can contact me.

. I take phone calls emails from people and I enjoy it.. I have enough spare time that I can get through this.. Forgive me if I don't get back to everyconsistency right away on emails, because we are starting to get a whole bunch of stuff going on.

-I bet. -Yeah. And it's fun. I would certainly like to help. And they can come to these conferences. I mean you and I did a private conference which was really cool, low-carb conference.. I am going to speak a number of things now and I am on some podcasts.

Great. Thank you for your passion and thank you for your message., Always good to see you Bret. You too, Dr. Ben., [, Music ]. I'm joined today by dr. benbeckie Keogh. Now, dr. Ben or Ben bow as he's known, was really quite a pioneer in the world of low carb lifestyles and resistance training and high-intensity interval training.

He started this back in the 70s and has continued with it today and if, when you hear him talk, you're gonna see his passion, his knowledge in the impact he's had on on a lot of the people. He's worked with, and one of the things we talked about is the concept of you can't outrun, a bad dieting.

He is a different perspective on that that I think will be really important to hear, and I mean he knows his stuff. He's got his training, he has a PhD in practice physiology and the second PhD in wellness and physical education and, like I said he's, been in practice since the 70s, helping people and it's.

Important to hear sort of the the counterbalance to oh, we don't have to worry so much about practice and his point is practices absolutely crucial when done correctly and works synergistically with dieting to help us metabolically and help our wellness.

So I hope you really appreciate and enjoy this interview with dr. Ben Vicky, Keogh hi everyconsistency quick break in the interview. There are a lot of low carb conferences around and one that's. Coming up now is low, carb, Denver 2020 and for dieting.

Doctor members, you can have free access to all the videos, all the presentations at that conference. If you remember now, if you're, seeing this before the conference happens, it's coming up soon, but even if you, you're watching this video now after it & # 39, s already happened after March 2020.

If your dieting, doctor member, you can still go back and watch all those videos that are on our platform - and let me tell you low carb Denver, always always comes out with a great supply of speakers. The lineup is fantastic.

There's, so many great take home nuggets and information from those talks, something you're, not gonna want to miss so go ahead and go to dr. calm, look into the membership. You get a one-month free trial, the membership, and that will give you access to all these videos.

So you can learn from the experts to help you on your path to wellness, all right so that's. The low carb Denver 2020 videos check them out. Now let's, get back to our interview, [ Music, ], dr. ben, be kikyo.

Thank you for joining me on the dieting. Doctor podcast on my pleasure. Bread, always a pleasure to see you yeah. I've learned so much since I & # 39. Ve met you, and one of the things that that really was remarkable to me is that you & # 39.

Ve, been doing this. This new thing called acute, acute low carb dieting and high-intensity interval training. This brand new fad thing since oh, what 1974 is that right? Yeah yeah - I actually personally before that, but professionally and clinically be at 7 starter than 74.

So give us some of the background of how you got started in this with your with your education and then what you were seen in in your clients and in you personally. Well, I mean I started off being an athlete and my family had scientists in it and doctors, my parents were educators.

My father was a firefighter and a teacher, and I always liked sports, and I was always fascinated with the training one of my cousins. Great cousins - really, we called him uncle - was the trainer and manager of Jersey, Joe Walcott, who was the world heavyweight boxing champion too before Rocky Marciano? So I used to go to the fights and I'd, get to go in the gym and watch these old, guys, train and box and stuff, and I was always fascinated by it yeah and as an athlete.

I was always really interested in how to train to be better at the sport, but I really liked the training part as much as the sport in some cases, and so I decided I was gonna study this in college and I got a degree in phys.

Ed wellness and science and then a master's in education with a specialization in a resistance practice, then I did a PhD in practice, physics, physiology and the second one after I was in practice for a while.

I I noted I had a low back center in Miami. Everyconsistency was overweight. I had a the largest fittingness center in New York City. Everyconsistency was most people concerned with their weight, had a cardiac rehab center and most of the problems for those people was.

They were overweight, so I decided and I had pretty good business going. Then I had the time I decided to take a pH second PhD to get serious and study obesity. So when you do a PhD you had you do what they call a review of literature.

So you have a theoretical basis for your hypothesis, okay, so my review of literature was the educatement of obesity and fat related disorders, so about eight or ten years before gary tabs wrote good calories, bad calories.

I interviewed and studied a bunch of the people that he did for his book. So when that book came out, i got ahold of gary and we've, become really good friends and done seminars and presentations together, and so so i got into that.

But as far as the low carb thing i mean to me, it was all you know, firsthand observation people wanted to get lean and the leanest people that i knew were consistencybuilders. So I kind of asked them it's kind of like asking a racehorse how to run fast, but I asked them what they were doing and I kind of observed what they were doing and they would they were low caught me before contest these Guys were low, carb, big-time, low, carb, okay, and I thought well that's.

A good way to go, and I didn't mind it because I loved eating meat and I did it myself and I felt really good and I didn't and at that time I was still a fairly elite athlete and I Felt great and my performances and my energy and everything in habitus - and you know I'm - not a consistencybuilder.

I always had a decent set. You know good set of Italian muscles and uh, so I I started doing it and I used it for a lot of my first clients and patients and subjects and studies that I did, and so we did the ketogenic and then I created in 1974.

Slow resistance, training and the basis of that was high intensity training that was safe and productive, and I really started out training athletes. In fact, going back to 1974 might be interesting to note that I didn't even at first consider that women could do this.

I could do it there, wasn't. It wasn't such a thing. So I had a poser come to me and a Olympic volleyball player gal and they worked their butts off and I said, whoa light went on. They can do this too.

You know I mean that literally did not even consider that as part of my poser, you know, and so it it grew rapidly into orthopedic, rehab, cardiac rehab metabolic disorders, all kinds of you know sports training, and so my clientele just got diverse and big very fast And by the time I was, I think, 27 years old, I had seven of these facilities centers all over the East Coast, and you know that was that's.

The deal and - and I've - been doing it ever since you know so. You really were sort of one of the pioneers in the field, because you know now it's. Incredibly, popular and people are talking about hit and Lokar, but back then really not many.

Other people were talking about it well low-carb. Actually, I've, seen about three iterations in the 4550 years that I've been doing this okay, you had still a minister and you had. Then you know. Of course she had Adkins the initial stages and he was in New York and I was in New York at the time and then these things you know they got hot and then they went away, and I think I'm trying for this.

Not to happen in this iteration, but I think we have more solid science and we have better people to represent this drive. This is this issue, so I think this time it'll stick and I want but one of the things you know and I think Steve Finney.

I realized Steve's almost as old as I am, and I realized we have kind of a similar perspective on some of the new claims made by the Aikido community. So they'll pump the brakes a little bit, so they're weak.

So we don't get into that. You know getting ahead of ourselves and making claims that are going to make us less reliable. That's, a great point, because when something becomes hot and something becomes a new catchphrase and people are benefiting from it, it almost turns into a cure-all.

And then, then you start to sound like you're selling snake oil, because one thing can cure ever can cure all. So what do you see is some of the areas where you think maybe the low-carb community's gone too far and used to pump the brakes a little bit? Well, not not intentionally, but anytime things get hot.


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